Yarning up with Gerry Turpin – An Interview about Indigenous biocultural knowledges

Aboriginal conversations usually take place around a fire, so that we can sit and immerse ourselves not only through talk but connect with Country. The act of yarning serves as a medium to establish and build respectful relationships, exchange stories and traditions and to preserve and pass on cultural knowledge. This interview with Ethnobotanist Gerry Turpin (Fig. 1) began like all other initial yarning conversations on who we are and where we belong.


By Gerry Turpin and Liz Cameron
Aboriginal conversations usually take place around a fire, so that we can sit and immerse ourselves not only through talk but connect with Country.The act of yarning serves as a medium to establish and build respectful relationships, exchange stories and traditions and to preserve and pass on cultural knowledge.This interview with Ethnobotanist Gerry Turpin (Fig. 1) began like all other initial yarning conversations on who we are and where we belong.Liz: Over the last few years, there has been a significant growth in Indigenous people engaging in environmental sciences.Gerry, how did you become deeply involved in this discipline?
G erry: In my life, as soon as you become of age, you leave school to support yourself.I went to Year 11 and then coming to age left school to support myself.My first job was picking potatoes in a paddock, which set the scene for the next ten years in undertaking farm work, labouring and fruit picking.I found work whenever I could and had no aspirations for higher education such as University.I did try to obtain a Senior Certificate through TFE night school, but there was no one to guide me.On one of my travels in Brisbane, I was connected by the National Indigenous Employment Scheme with the Queensland Department of Primary Industries, which provided me with opportunities to learn new skills.This included lab techniques, working with plants and mounting specimens onto cardboard for library collections and looking after the greenhouses.I later undertook training in regional ecological mapping as a technical officer and after a few years I became interested in native plants.My problem was I could do the work but did not have the piece of paper to apply for any botanist jobs until an Indigenous Scholarship to go to university became available through the state department.Within this program, I studied full time and would work on holidays.This opportunity was invaluable to me as I continued to receive a full salary, which in turn led to the successful completion of my university degree.As a mature age student, married with twins this type of support was helpful.While at university, one of my lecturers, Susanne Schmidt pushed me to ethnobotany projectsshe inspired and supported me.I've now been in the department for over 30 years.Over the years, I have built a niche in this area and have been involved with many different partnerships.

Liz: As the first government employed Indigenous
Ethnobotanist what is an important aspect of your role?
Gerry: I spend a lot of time with Indigenous communities (Figs 2, 3).I support Indigenous communities in decisionmaking about certain plants including plant knowledge and the protection of that knowledge.One of my roles is recording and documenting traditional plant use with various Indigenous communities in north Queensland, particularly on Cape York Peninsula.Another aspect of my role is to ensure protocols are put in place and that everyone understands the importance of these protocols.
Liz: How did you get involved in the Ecological Society of Australia (ESA)?
Gerry: I started getting involved some 10 years ago with ESA through conference attendance and later presentations.I became involved in a working group to look at Indigenous engagement that led to developing a strategy to support Indigenous Ecological Knowledge structures.I also was involved in establishing an active Indigenous scientists' network.ESA developed an annual Indigenous Symposium, which continues to be well represented by many Indigenous groups and Traditional Owners.This led to my appointment as on the ESA Board as Director of Indigenous Engagement.I owe much gratitude to Dr Ro Hill and Dr Emilie Ens for initially establishing the Indigenous Symposium.One of our first documents included a reconciliation action plan along with further information on Indigenous protocols.I stepped down this year from the position and another person will be invited to step into the role.
Liz: ESA has been a pillar of progress towards recognising that Indigenous knowledge is of equal standing to Western Knowledge.What aspects have helped drive such change?
Gerry: ESA has been instrumental to making positive changes.They are one of the forefront thinkers in pushing an Indigenous agenda considerably over the years.ESA has been involved in writing up many of the necessary protocols.There has also been a great deal of work on intellectual property and restorative work such as Indigenous regeneration projects.In a way, it has rectified many of the problems of ecological research the past where there has been no exchange or benefits to communities.
Liz: I see a lot of sadness over the mismanagement and abuse of Country and its resources.What are some of the concerns you see?
Gerry: There was a lot of mismanagement going on with Western science taking priority over Indigenous science.Since colonisation Aboriginal land management practices have been taken out of the equation with many of our lands locked up.This included National Parks and even environmental groups that haves good intentions to protect Country, but for Aboriginal people it has resulted in having no access to their traditional lands.Aboriginal people have always been part of the environment and until people realise this we will continue to struggle.Gerry: There remains some caution within each community due to historical events.For example, some pharmaceutical companies have taken some of our plants for medicinal purposes such as a certain species of the pitjuri or Eucalyptus species and have created multimillion dollar businesses with no consideration or benefit to Aboriginal people.There continues to be people still trying to do things without permission such as overseas companies trying to put a patency on native plants.Gerry: True engagement starts with an equal partnership.This includes ensuring that Indigenous communities are co-managers and co-designers in each project.Engagement needs to be consistent so there is benefit sharing.Any activities done on Country require a set of protocols that including gaining consent from the traditional owners.This requires any contracts to be outlined in plain English and time spent explaining all aspects of a project.Finding the right people for right country and relationship building is the first point of call in forming a proper partnership.Once this happens other things will fall into place.Another aspect of true engagement includes understanding each communities' laws and practices.One cannot simply walk into a community without permission.By including Indigenous people as part of the project, researchers can gain a greater insight into many of the cultural and spiritual aspects of Country.
Ecologists also need to learn the community's language as this will provide them with further information of specific plants and animals.Local language should also be included in reports and presentations as our words are often descriptive and can build better partnershipsparticularly when we are co-presenting.
Liz: You mention copresenting as being part of the engagement process.
What ways can ecologists build on this collaborative partnership?
Gerry: Co-presenting highlights how two-way engagement works.There has been a history of Western ecologists presenting on behalf of Indigenous people, which only highlights one perspective.This is now changing where Indigenous people are becoming co-presenters, comanagers and co-authors on projects.
Liz: In my experience, there are few conferences that are culturally welcoming when it comes to presenting.I have found many Indigenous colleagues feeling uncomfortable and out of place presenting alone on stage.How can conferences facilitate better ways to engage Indigenous people?
Gerry: The best way is to co-present with others.I have seen groups of people come up together and speak as a united voice.I have also witnessed presenters use videos and more visual imagery to describe and highlight the work that they do rather than using graphs or just speaking.This engages the audience more.
Another aspect in co-presenting at conferences is that there is a need for researchers to consider additional funding to ensure communities can also attend conferences.As funding has become more limited and more competitive, we need to support Traditional Owners to attend these activities.This requires pre-thinking when applying for grants.
Liz: How can people learn about Indigenous ecological knowledge?As an academic and researcher, I am often appalled by the lack of Indigenous presence in our educational systems, especially in environmental sciences.This has left a gap of knowledge central to progress in two-way knowledge exchange.
Gerry: There is a growing interest worldwide in Indigenous knowledges with various environmental groups

Gerry
Turpin is an Ethnobotanist with the Tropical Indigenous Ethnobotany Centre (TIEC) at the Australian Tropical Herbarium (E2.108C,Sir Robert Norman Building (E2), James Cook University, PO Box 6811, Cairns QLD 4870, Australia.Tel: +61 (0)7 4232 1809; Email: gerry.turpin@des.qld.gov.au).A Mbabaram Traditional Owner and Australia's first formally trained Indigenous Ethnobotanist, Gerry is committed to Indigenous ecological knowledge, and its use in collaboration with Western science for environmental management.Liz Cameron is a Professor of Indigenous Knowledges at Deakin University (Geelong Waurn Ponds Campus, 75 Pigdons Road, Waurn Ponds, Vic 3216, Australia.Tel: +61 3 524 79358; Email: l.cameron@deakin.edu.au).She is also a Dharug practising artist who researchers in social-emotional aspects of Country.This interview about Indigenous knowledge systems and two-way approaches in ecological practices in environmental management is part of the special issue 'Indigenous and Cross-cultural Ecology: Perspectives from Australia' published in Ecological Management & Restoration.

Figure 1 .
Figure 1.Gerry Turpin assessing culturally important species Bloodroot (Haemodorum coccineum) at the 'Bringing Back the Good Fire' project on his ancestral lands, Mbabaram Country.
14428903, 2022, S1, Downloaded from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/emr.12531by Eddie Koiki Mabo Library, Wiley Online Library on [14/05/2023].See the Terms and Conditions (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/terms-and-conditions)on Wiley Online Library for rules of use; OA articles are governed by the applicable Creative Commons License The problem is that most of Australia still has no laws on the protection of our native plants and thus, it is often open slather for commercialisation.Another issue is that there are two forms of Indigenous knowledge, one to share and one not to share.Shared Figure 3. Gerry Turpin (far right) with the Mbabaram Land Managers, at Watsonville, Mbabaram Country, 2017.ECOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT & RESTORATION VOL 23 NO S1 JANUARY 2022 19 ª 2022 The Authors.Ecological Management & Restoration published by Ecological Society of Australia and John Wiley & Sons Australia, Ltd.I N T E R V I E W knowledge is decided by each community while sacred knowledge is not shared.Liz: You have mentioned consultation as being part of engagement with Indigenous communities, what sort of engagement is needed when researchers wish to do work on a particular Country?
14428903, 2022, S1, Downloaded from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/emr.12531by Eddie Koiki Mabo Library, Wiley Online Library on [14/05/2023].See the Terms and Conditions (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/terms-and-conditions)on Wiley Online Library for rules of use; OA articles are governed by the applicable Creative Commons License Yes, a lot of the time I act as a cultural broker.While I tend to focus on plants other things also come into playas the spiritual aspects of plants.For example, some plants have laws attached to them or taboos, for example, certain plants should not to be consumed until a male is initiated.Some plants are viewed as ancestors or have value in other areas.These complex involvements are often overlooked by Western scientists who tend to study just the physical aspects of the plant rather than its spiritual or cultural relationship.That would have to be the peanut tree, which is a part of the family.It produces bright red capsules that taste really nice.It has other multiple uses and medicinal values.Its bark is used for string making, basket weaving and traditional fibre-craft clothing.The leaves have antibacterial value and useful for coughs and colds.N T E R V I E W 14428903, 2022, S1, Downloaded from https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/emr.12531by Eddie Koiki Mabo Library, Wiley Online Library on [14/05/2023].See the Terms and Conditions (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/terms-and-conditions)on Wiley Online Library for rules of use; OA articles are governed by the applicable Creative Commons License 20 ECOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT & RESTORATION VOL 23 NO S1 JANUARY 2022 ª 2022 The Authors.Ecological Management & Restoration published by Ecological Society of Australia and John Wiley & Sons Australia, Ltd.I N T E R V I E W Gerry: Gerry: ECOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT & RESTORATION VOL 23 NO S1 JANUARY 2022 21 ª 2022 The Authors.Ecological Management & Restoration published by Ecological Society of Australia and John Wiley & Sons Australia, Ltd.I